i heard some of saddam's speech that he held to the iraqi nation (on the news).
he warned usa that they can not attac iraq.
because god is on saddam's side, and god would never let anyone to beat the iraqi nation.. now we finally know that it infact is saddam that has the true religion, the connection with god, jw's was the wrong answer.... i would love to hear his excuse for loosing big time if the war really starts.
We should also remember that, according to the after-game interviews, God has been on the side of every winning college and pro football team too.
Everyone thinks God is on their side. It's the one's who think he's ONLY on their side that ya gotta watch out for.
in the watchtower world, woman are just about nothing.
they hold no responsibilities in the congregation except cleaning the toilets and not much more.
we all know that woman are just as intelligent as men, and some could even be good elders.
Do I think the bible is old fashioned? Being as it was written a couple thousand years ago, I'm gonna have to go with: Yes.
I would have gone with "Duh" but I wasn't sure that was an acceptable answer.
Seriously, I think this thread could generate many positive, insightful, well thought-out comments. It's just that this particular successful career and family woman is too tired to spend much longer than a few minutes restating the obvious...
we need to take into consideration that in the last election in iraq, he got 100% of the vote.
like many dictators throughout the world, he is immensly popular.
he probably is stockpiling weapons of mass destruction to keep them out of the hands of real bad guys.
Drachir, you're either very, very high, or under the impression that random fanatical blathering=hysterical sarcasm.
I'm too tired to reason (or argue) with either type of person.
If you were just attempting humor, I see where you were going--you just didn't quite make it there.
here in columbia a pedophile was recently released from prison on parole.
part of his parole condition was that he could not possess child porn of which he had tons when he was originally arrested.
on one visit by the po the outer cover of a kiddie porn mag was found.
Ya know, I have found that it's very difficult to balance the 'staunch civil rights advocate' with the 'mom' in me. I want to say that we had better be pretty clear as to the definition of what consititutes pornography, and make the analogy that an empty beer can in the trunk of a car is not conclusive proof against the sobriety of the driver. Our justice system bears the burden of setting clear, concise, and defined parameters for what is considered 'illegal' material, and if we allow those parameters to bend to accomodate our distaste for the suspect posessing them, we're all in big trouble. I want to say that.
But mostly I'm thinking "Get that pervert off the street and back behind bars where he belongs."
Politically Correct? No. Honest? Yes.
(As a side note, the statement that in the US sex offenders aren't allowed to own cameras or toys smacks of misinformation to me)
Edited by - Sara Annie on 17 January 2003 17:50:50
so many stories from so many people.
i've read with them all with interest and sympathy, and felt that if i am going to stick around and be a productive member, i should probably tell my own.
i know i am not the only non-jw on this site, and i wanted to offer the perspective of a 'never-was' as to why i am here and participating in the discussions.
Bug-
Thank you for the link to the quotes site, I have visited it before and think it's a terrific resource. Much appreciated.
Cruz-
I enjoyed the article you recommended. I am always struck by the glaring irony in so many of the WT's printed statements. I read excerpts of their publications with my mouth hanging open half the time--it's difficult to imagine how their assertions can be taken seriously. Then again, I suppose if your reading is limited to ONLY their literature, you just wouldn't know any better. It reminds me of the old saying "Beware of the man who has read only one book". Thanks for the link.
Thanks again, everyone!
now that my decision to leave the organization is made, there is definitely a sense of relief.
i know i'm leaving a controlling organization, not my faith in god.
so i'm still praying at various times during the day, but it has become a very odd thing now.
I'd try not to be so hard on yourself about the particulars.
I once read that "...the desire to pray is itself a prayer". Made sense to me, I think God is well aware of your intentions. As for what to call him or how to address and conclude, try what you like and remember that this is GOD we're talking about, not AT&T or the Post Office. You can't misdial the numbers, you can't write the address wrong, & the message gets through to the source even if the postage isn't correct. You're doing just fine.
God Bless,
-Sara
so many stories from so many people.
i've read with them all with interest and sympathy, and felt that if i am going to stick around and be a productive member, i should probably tell my own.
i know i am not the only non-jw on this site, and i wanted to offer the perspective of a 'never-was' as to why i am here and participating in the discussions.
Thanks for the welcome, all.
I have learned so much in the short time I've been here, I look forward to a good experience overall.
so many stories from so many people.
i've read with them all with interest and sympathy, and felt that if i am going to stick around and be a productive member, i should probably tell my own.
i know i am not the only non-jw on this site, and i wanted to offer the perspective of a 'never-was' as to why i am here and participating in the discussions.
So many stories from so many people. I've read with them all with interest and sympathy, and felt that if I am going to stick around and be a productive member, I should probably tell my own. I know I am not the only non-JW on this site, and I wanted to offer the perspective of a 'never-was' as to why I am here and participating in the discussions. I will be the first to admit that my association with the WTBTS has been peripheral. I suppose that my interest in the JWs lies in their effect on my family.
My extended family has always been a close one. Nearly 20 years ago, my beloved Aunt began studying with the witnesses. Her involvement led to herself, her husband, and her four children eventually being baptized into the organization. My own nuclear family, for a short time, allowed my Aunt and Uncle to conduct a few "bible studies" in our home. Fortunately, my parents were wise enough to see the organization for what it was: a corporate cult masquerading as the sole path to salvation. While their presence at holidays was missed, my family was, unlike so many of those that I've read about, able to maintain a relationship despite the disparity in our religious lives. As a child, my brother and I spent long stretches with them in the summers, so it happens I attended many JW meetings and social functions with their family as a child. After their involvement with the WT began, we continued the long summer visits with my cousins in their small town, the only difference was that instead of going to church on Sunday, we went with them to their various meetings and activities. I remember absorbing much of the information I heard, particularly their staunch assertions that Armageddon was surely just around the corner. (I vividly remember one horrible New Year's eve in the 80's that I watched the clock for two hours before midnight and for an hour afterward absolutely petrified, because my Aunt and cousins had told me that the "present system of things" would end before that year was over... )
Over the years, I learned just to accept their religious affiliation without much thought. For most of that time, I could believe that the JWs were a harmless sect (though misguided, I felt) and took all of the information my extended family gave me about the religion at face value. My parents, however, had a harder time. It wasn't until the last few years, while I watched my Aunt die from a condition that could have been greatly alleviated, if not eliminated, by blood transfusions and/or an organ transplant she felt her "bible-trained conscience" could not support, that I began to really wonder exactly what my family members had gotten themselves into. My mother, heartbroken at the loss of her baby sister, was treated as a stranger at her funeral service, WT pamphlets thrust at her in her grief. She was my mother's sister long before she was their 'sister', and I couldn't fathom the cold reception. It was soon after that I began to research for myself exactly what it was that JW doctrine was comprised of. I read the WT literature. I read the opposition literature. It didn't take a great leap of logic to weigh the two and determine where common sense and truth lay. It was only with age, and an informed perspective, that I began to see how destructive the influence of the WT organization had been in my family.
Looking back, I now understand how easy it must have been for the JWs at my Aunt's door to draw her in. She was a lonely full-time parent in a small town, whose children were all in school and whose husband worked long hours. She had married young with only a high school education, and the group of ready-made friends with such "special" knowledge was appealing to her. Disillusioned with the church she had attended her whole life, she threw herself into the work of the Kingdom, and it seemed to make her happy. In my experience getting to know the members of her congregation in the years that followed, they impressed me as group full of other lonely people. They were social misfits, typically poorly educated and relentlessly self-involved. They talked endlessly about the coming end of the world, and how those who didn't embrace the truth (read: you and your heathen family!) were going to perish. The more exposure I had to them, the less I liked or respected them. I remember eventually choosing not to spend my summer vacation with my cousins to avoid having to hang out with the witnesses. They talked of how happy their religion made them, but openly discussed the many mental illnesses of congregation members. It seemed like a relatively large percentage of the JW population was on medication for some kind of depression or other psychological condition. My later exposure with other witnesses would reveal the same phenomenon-my experience would seem to indicate that there is a much greater incidence of mental health problems within the WT than in the population at large. It seems to make sense: You'd either have to already be a little troubled to buy into the whole doctrine, or you'd soon be psychologically harmed by the controlling philosophy you adopted. A few years prior to my Aunt's death, my Uncle began having doubts about the religion, and it led to his disfellowshipping and the end of their marriage.
Since my Aunt's death, two of her children have disassociated themselves from the org, while two remain heavily active (one a former bethelite and the other a regular pioneer). The two who have left the organization have faced shunning by their former "brothers and sisters". It has been quite hurtful to them. It's been wonderful, however, to have them participating in family holiday events again. In speaking to both of them, they have said that they were fully aware that their inactivity in the organization would most likely lead to their disassociation. They knew the price they would pay for leaving (one "faded" while the other sent a letter disassociating themselves), and it's been difficult for them. Just as sad is the fact that they are in their late 20's and early 30's and have missed so much in their lives due to their affiliation with the WT. Neither pursued any education after high school, neither has had a meaningful relationship, and they are both ill-equipped socially. It just seems so ridiculous. 1 death, 1 divorce, 1 family divided, 2 uncertain futures, 4 siblings' relationships ruined, and for what? The "Truth"? Hardly.
I am here because I still have family in the org, and I have a zealous co-worker actively trying to recruit from within our company, and I want to be able to refute the information being disseminated in an informed and intelligent manner. The stories and doctrinal discussions have been insightful and inspiring. I have great respect for each of you here who have found your way out of the darkness of the "light" of the WT. I commend your bravery and wish you all the best in your journey in the world.
So that's why I'm here. FYI.
Edited by - Sara Annie on 15 January 2003 12:8:33
this is really bothering me, and i have a need to vent.
is it normal for grandparents to not take an active interest in their grandchildren?
my mother is still a dub, and i faded away about seven years ago.
I can't pretend to understand this particular woman's attitude. My own parents (and my in-laws) are certifiably crazy about their grandchildren. If we didn't call them to babysit, they'd meet us at our door and demand that we take a day for ourselves and abduct our children then and there.
I do know, however, that some grandparents don't enjoy babysitting. I have heard of more than one grandparent that believes that they raised their own children, and that their responsibility as a grandparent is not that of a parent. On the other hand, I know of several people with loving parents who dote on their children who take ridiculous advantage of the situation. Grandparents are under no obligation to babysit a child whenever their parents desire them to, either.
As for the particular grandmother in question, it very well could be her JW mentality, but it might be that she's just a miserable person, period, and not the type of woman you'd want to have great influence on your child, whether she's their grandmother or not. One particularly distasteful take on the situation that keeps running through my head is an attitude expressed by a very unpleasant woman in my office who has two children, a son and a daughter, who each have 2 children. She once told me that she favored her daughter's children because she could be certain that they were her "real" grandchildren. She said that even though she was fond of her daugher-in-law, her son's children could possibly NOT be her biological grandchildren. She told me in a satisfied voice that her own mother had shared that nugget of wisdom with her, and she felt it was a sensible way to explain herself when accused of favoritism. It never ceases to amaze me what people will actually say out loud to others.
If it were me, I would try to console myself with the fact that my children are deeply loved by their parents, and that attempting to foster a loving relationship with a grandparent unable to nurture them would do more harm than good.
i quit smoking 3 days ago.
it was not as difficult as i thought it was going to be.
i have tried to break the habit before but always gave up, thinking that i was hopelessly addicted.
Robyn, you are doing one of the best, and hardest, things you will ever do for yourself and your family. You should be very proud.
My husband, an 18 year pack-a-day smoker, recently quit (3 months, 9 days and counting) using Zyban to jumpstart his quitting process as well. I won't say it's been easy or fun for him (or for ME for that matter!), but the sense of accomplishment he's gained has been worth every difficult moment. They say that for nicotine addicts the quitting process can be as difficult as that of giving up heroin. I'm inclined to agree with them after watching the first few weeks of my husband's 'cigarette-sobriety'. The headaches, sweats, and shakes were just as bothersome as any hollywood depiction of a junkie without their fix. There were days when it would have been easier to just tell him to "go and have a cigarette already!" than to deal with the highs and lows. Gradually, the playing field levels, and the benefits are almost immediate. I can't tell you how nice it is to kiss this man I love, and for the first time in five years not taste the last cigarette he smoked. My house smells so clean and fresh, our clothes no longer smell of ashes, and I haven't had a cold or runny nose in three months! On Christmas Day, I opened a small box he'd wrapped that contained only a note that said "the rest of my life, smoke free". Best present I've ever received.
No one will ever be able to tell me that people who can't quit smoking are just lazy. I'm not sure everyone could fight their way through the addiction and win. You have a great start, congratulations and best of luck in each coming day. You can do it!
